Hi all,

I figured this needed its own topic . . . how do you deal with opposing "big nasties?" By "big nasty" I mean the Bloodthirster, the High Elf Highborn on Star Dragon, or even the tricked out Daemon Prince.

I think the most reliable counter is a Highborn with high movement (either mounted or Alter Kindred), the Annoyance of Netlings, and a solid ward save (probably the SoCM, but the Amarinthine Brooch has its charms as well). Combined with some Wild Riders, this character can give enemy "big nasties" a lot of headaches.

What about you? Have you come up with a tactic to fight these kinds of models that doesn't rely on AoN? What have your experiences been? Enquiring minds want to know!

All my experience with WE to date is with a pure Forest Spirit list.

I have a couple of tools I use to deal with the uber combatants like you mention.

1. Lvl 1 Branchwraith with Annoyand & Murder of Spites - ** A staple in my army and lives in a unit of dryads. Starts me off with +1 CR for Outnumber. Has died to a Bloodthirster, but popped a Demon Prince.

2. Dryads - Feed Em Cheap units of Dryads... (Typically, this is the best bet for a pure FS list)

3. Treekin + Treeman - This combo could not take down a Bloodthirster(Dice), but would probably fair well vs most other big nasties.

The problems I see with these solutions:

1) Cheap Dryads: These guys are normally large targets, so they can see over Dryads. If they do charge the Dryads, you'll need to keep your other units well away from the combat as the monster can charge in the advantageous direction. If you charge him with the Dryads, I can't see how the Dryads (only WS4 T4 1W troops, after all) won't take significant casualites and run from the first round of combat, which kind of defeats the whole purpose (of tying the monster up in combat)

2) Treeman and Treekin: I agree this would be ideal, but a canny opponent won't put his big nasty in a position to be charged by either of these units, much less both. Since we are, again, talking about flyers, it seems that they just have too large a maneuverability advantage to allow Treemen or Treekin to effectively hunt them.

3) Branchwraith with AoN is, I think, the best option suggested. Unfortunately the BW has only a 10" charge radius, so again somewhat easy to keep the big nasty away from her. Also, she has only 2W and not much of a ward save, so if the monster gets lucky in a challenge its a hard row to hoe from there on out.

What does everyone else think?

A block of Eternal Guard with Highborn equiped with Rhymer's Harp.

If the big nasty challenges, feed him the unit champ. Most he can get is 6 CR (and the champ has a 5+WD to save some of them), you outnumber, couple ranks, standard, maybe BSB as well. Odds are you are going to win the combat.

I've repelled Giant, Bone Giant, Shaggoth, Carnasaur, Kroq-gar, Wyvern, Azhag on Wyvern, DE lord in chariot and another Treeman (and plenty of non-big hitters). Such things cannot break ranked units (not easily) and with your Lord and BSB in that unit he has to make his best attempt at beating it or leave the table with a draw.

If the combat ends in a draw (or I lose and hold due to rerollable stubborn LD9), I have Wardancers, Dryads or a Treeman waiting in the wings to flank charge.

The question I'd have is "how do you get the big nasty to charge your tarpit unit in the first place?" They are much faster and more maneuverable than Eternal Guard, and should be able to sup on the rest of your army with ease. How do you manage to get your opponents to engage the one unit with enough static combat resolution to give their big nasty problems?

Mach, as I said, the unit of EG with Highborn and BSB has SO many points in it, that the opponent will want to engage it with his big nasty or have little choice but to settle for a draw. Having a Treeman and some Wardancers on the flanks guarding the EG from flank/rear charges is a must of course.

Really the idea is to force the opponent to pick either being Killing Blowed off his dragon by Wardancers or having his mount crushed by a Treeman or hoping for good results against a block of infantry. None of which is generally acceptable. If you can keep all three of your units protecting each other (and a mage with Call of the Hunt handy) you should be able to deal with a big nasty easily. I know I have.

I am very fond of the Dragon Lord lately and he is also very resilietn to such treats thanks to the annoying spite. He can fight back against most of the monsters you described and he flies so presents a treat to them hence the game becomes a dogfight. The Bloodthirster is kind of nasty but if you can lock him up at a favrorable postion for a flank charge he also goes down.

The best creature anchor is the Treeman Ancient with the annoying spite. He is slow and can be avoided but once he gets grip with the monsters it's a just a metter of time before he gets rid of them

Truly there are flaws with the above and they are not the "Best Bet" for dealing with said nasties. They are, however, the weapons at my disposal in my "Treemonic Legion" army and you learn to work with what you have.

My preferred method of choice is to hide the big trees and stack dryads to encourage a domino effect from PiFE, and then work to get a flank with the big boys. This has worked very well on a number of occassions.

Lately I have been using a highborn on elven steed with helm of the hunt, stone of crystal mere, annoyance of netlins and sword of might. It works fine. Someone suggested to me that I should use the spirit sword, because he could kill the dragon quite easily. I think I will use that combo next.

In the summer I used a big block of eternal guard led by a bsb with stone of crystal mere. I faced a big nasty only once, and it was a bloodthirster. I also had a dragon in my own list, but the rider died unfortunetly to a doom diver (it was a multiplayer battle). The bloodthirster charged my eternal guard (the only unit worth his attention) and my bsb challanged. He held for one turn, but on the second he died. It didn't matter as the bloodthirster vanished to the air, due combat resolution.

I think the eternal guard led by a lord is better than a mobile high born, but only if you mannage to get your enemy charge him. If it looks like the big nasty is going for your eternal guard, you could allways let the mobile highborn join the guard, unless he's an alter.

Like I can see and have experienced: Big monsters (giants excepted; just shoot-em!) are to be swamped by a large unit with a highborn, until the unit, with it's superior US and attacking power kills it.

Wardancers with bladesinger highborn do wonders!

Frecus
The glade wanderer
Madwarrior

Ironically for our mobile forces, it seems getting in position to catch the big bad with the unit you want to take it out with is the greatest challenge of all. A wardancer lord with AoN and Blades of Loec will take out most any big creature--if your opponent lets you get him into combat, that is.

Fortunately, we can move our most expensive stuff out of the charge arc of most big bads, and lead a lot of them around--ever play "spin the bloodthirster"? It's great fun!

I have just managed to "deal with" the DoW character on the dragon. A HoDA and some very courageous Glade Riders (MVP) managed to shoot the rider off. Unfortunately he went ballistic on the monster reaction chart with hatred and frenzy. After he frenzied I baited with a Great Eagle and took him into the Glade Guard and charged him in the rear with War Dancers. They didnt do anything the dragon killed 6 Glade Guard and I was on minus 3 and everyone ran. He ran down my Glade Guard.....do you roll 3d6 for flyers pursue....its not 20" pursue is it? And ended up on the other side of the board.
So he camped the rest of his army while he ran round causing havoc. If the dryads hadnt beaten the duelists who broke, panicked the pikemen who fled through the dwarves who also panicked, I would have lost by 3 or 400 points and I had 100 points on him.
He ignored the TreeKin (first use by the way and didnt really do stuff all as they were never in position) due to flying and there wasnt much I could do to him. My standard alter could have charged him if he hadnt overrun to the other side of the table but I didnt co-ordinate properly.
I face him again next week, I need a better plan this time as I was not expecting the dragon and I have never faced one before.

Maybe it's just the opponents I've played against, but the concept of feeding said Big Nasty a disposable unit with another unit waiting to be overrun/pursued into has worked well for me several times. The ones that work well are the dryads, with pursuit into Treeman (or other juicy unit like wardancers), then have wild riders or wardancers or treeman ready to jump the flank after the overrun move. Since you strike with multiple chargers in Initiative order, we have a huge advantage. Granted, this works best against frenzied units, but sometimes just parking the dryad unit 4" in front of a unit gives them very few options. Spend a turn (or two) maneuvering around it or charge it. A 10" march by the dryads can do wonders to mess up your opponent's options to the point where he feels he HAS to charge the bait unit so that he's at least getting some VP instead of dancing around with his big hammer unit. The mental game here is just as important as pushing the pieces around on the table.

That works against anything but a Bloodthirster. I tried that trick against one and lost my Wardancer lord for my trouble. Damn immortal fury, or whatever, Hatred and he rolled 4! 6's to hit in the challenge. Ugliest thing I've ever seen.

I havent had to fight a big monster apart from the DoW dragon. I have no idea what I'd do against a BT.
The dragon before he loses his rider ( which I managed pretty fast) can just zip about and flame everything. As he is a flying large target he seems able to pick what units he charges. Putting a unit in front of him doesnt stop him as he can pop over it and get to another unit. His S4 breath weapon decimated my elves. The best bet is killing the rider and hoping it becomes stupid or frenzied. When its not frenzied he doesnt have to charge and can pick and choose and can restrain from running in to a trap.
A BT doesnt have that option as hes obviously not a ridden monster.