This tactica will be extremely helpful to me, as well as the other for WoC, since I'll be starting a campaign this week where the two best players are playing Lizards and Warriors. The lizardmen player in particular is a rough and cunning opponent and I have always had a hard time bringing him down.

The last 3 times I've played him his army has been mostly the same. Slann with "know all spells from lore," "extra power die" and Banehead, as BSB in a 16 strong Temple Guard Bunker flanked by an Engine of the Gods and either a Jaguar charm Scar Vet or a second Steg hero with war spear. With Burning Alignment, blow pipes, Machine gun lore of fire and flying scar vet/ dual impact hit stegs with war spear I can't get anywhere close to him. I can dance around and deny him LoS long enough to clean up the rest of his army and ultimately to gang-bang his Slann Bunker, but not before suffering huge casualties from multiple Drop Rocks attacks and Salamanders. And even then, with all of his points tied up in 2 or 3 stubborn units with high toughness and too many wounds, I can't do enough to bring him down. And if his Skink Priest with the 2+ AS survives my charge I get burning alignment for my trouble. I'd like to say I understand why people hated dual treemen + BSB builds, but Burning Alignment just makes it so much worse.

Has anyone faced this build and had any success? What are some of the other effective LM builds out there and how can we prepare for them? I know at some point in this campaign I'll face an Oldblood on Carmosaur, what can I do to stop that?

I also play LM (and have played against WE a few times) and have had the joy of facing LM with my WE. I think the key to beating LM is changing our tactics. Which is great, actually, because by now we have gotten into a comfortable groove with our army. It is time to bust out some items that don't see the light of day near as much as others.

Some examples are arcane bodkins and bow of loren on a highborn. Maybe even on a dragon with the SoCM. That's a build I'm toying with right now actually. Bye bye Skink Priest. The question I have is, do the Arcane Bodkins negate scaly saves? Is it separate from, or a subset of, armor saves?

Another I'm thinking is the Moonstone, which I tend to under-utilize anyways. If the Slann cant see you, he can't shoot you. Getting him in the rear is going to be key if he is surrounded by Temple Guard.

The wife just walked in, so I'll cut it short and come back later. A couple notes to leave on. Right now, Burning Alignment is technically not a magic spell, so it does not negate our forest spirit save. Also, the only reason to take an Oldblood is to take the Blade of Realities, which is like our Spirit Sword, but more uber in my opinion. That, and a Carnosaur, which is no longer a large target.

That's a good start.

Scaly Skin saves are armour saves "for all intents and purposes." I learned that after a Slann incinerated my Treeman with Spirit of the Forge.

The machine gun Highborn isn't exactly an uncommon build, that's been my most likely candidate for a Dragon rider for a long time. I've just never gone through with it. I do agree that this combo is potent against Lizards, especially against Stegs since even a shot randomized against the steg has a chance to wound and then there is no save available, unless they take the 5+ ward against shooting.

The 5+ ward is definitely something worth talking about. First of all, if they use it than they can't take burning alignment. Put enough pressure on the Steg with the Bow of Loren combo, then multi-charge everything that's close to the steg and keep shooting at it with the Dragon Rider, or Alter if that's how you've set it up. This will force him to make a tough decision, especially if you've already dropped a few wounds on the thing. This might be tough if he's taken the Ward early in the game but I think its worth it to focus fire on the steg. Except for the HoDA. I'd rather hit Terradons with that.

I think waves will be important to. If a LM player wishes, he can sink a lot of points into Stubborn units, and if his Slann is a BSB then he'll be almost impossible to break. Winning combat the first time should be possible, but continuing to do so might mean utilizing charge bonuses in the later turns. Hitting him with Dryads in the front and
Wild riders in the flank one turn to get the St5, then following it up with Wardancers for +1 str and Alters with GWs will keep the pressure on him, forcing him to continue to take break tests. You might loose too many wounds in his turn to be effective in you second turn, so keeping a reserve unit ready for the charge will be important. At least that's what I plan to do.

Getting behind him is definitely important, so multiple rank breakers can be useful to prevent him from turning, if facing one flank will expose the other. Massed Dryads are crucial as well to scatter skinks and threaten Terradons. Terries are still effective after they drop rocks, being fast cav as they are, so using Dryads to threaten there "landing zones" can keep them at bay for a turn or too or take them out once they've dropped and landed. And T4 and a 5+ ward go a long way if all they have to drop on are Dryads.

Alright so I've been thinking about this list a bit for the past 2 days and I think I might have come up with a few solutions, but they are all risky to a degree. I'l talk about them as if there is one stegadon, but 2 is definetly problematic.

Option 1) You could take a Level 4 with ranu's hearthstone (much like you suggested to me lol). I don't believe that build would be taking any scrolls, so if you get beast cowers, which you should more times than not, it can be your 5 power dice against his however many dice. Essentially say a unit of wardancers with a wardancer hero, and an Alter Noble with the Amber Pendant into the side (just so he doesn't get killed by the guard the next combat round) and then Wild riders into the rear. Or you can charge the wardancers and alter to the front and Wild Riders in the flank, which would probably be better since the flank usually has a smaller frontage so if the Wild Riders don't kill everyone he won't get as many attacks back. Then throw an eagle in front of the Steg as an insurance policy incase Beast Cowers doesn't go off, then chuck 5 dice and hope for the best. The idea is to kill the entire Temple Guard unit in three combat turns. I've seen most TG be 18 Strong so if I do some math (I'll probably mess up just a heads up)

On the Charge if the Wardancers are in the front with the Alter and Hero you should get 5 wardancer, and taking an extra attack gets you 15 attacks of which about 12 should hit, and 6 should wound. I believe TG have a 4+ base so it would be brought to 5 and you will kill about 4, you'll only kill 3 if it's a 3+. The Hero will get 5 attacks of which about 3 should hit, and then 2 should wound. A 3+ base means he'll save 1 (I'm just rounding up) a 4+ means probably none. The Alter should hit with 3 of his 4 attacks and wound with we'll say 2, and then kill 2. So that 8 dead with a 4+ base, 6 with a 3+ base, and the champion if you direct attacks/accept a challenge. The Wild Riders will get 6 attacks, of which 3 hit because I believe TG are WS 5. Then 2 will wound and he'll get a 5 plus or a 6 plus. So 1-2 should die depending on the save. Then 2-3 Horses should attack of which you might wound once but he'll probably save. So the Wild Riders only kill 1, maybe 2. So he gets 6-8 attacks back of which 3-4 hit and 2-3 wound, with your 6+ 5+ you should save about 1 and lose 1-2 Wild Riders. Then because I don't want to throw a huge post at you I would just say multiply the 9 dead TG times 3 and you should have 27 dead Temple Guard by the time 3 rounds is over. It won't be exactly that since Wardancers are only S3 now and won't get the extra attack, but the WR gain an attack as do the horses, and you could throw the Blades of Loec on a hero to further the meat grind.

Option 2)
The other idea I came up with is charging the stegadon. Now I do not know how many wounds the skink priest has so there are 2 ways to go about this. Now essentially you are charging a combination of Alters and a Wardancer hero/noble into the stegadon. The necessary magic Items you need are the Fimbulwinter Shard, Annoyance of Netlings, Helm of the Hunt, Amber Pendant and blades of loec. Those will fit on any combination of Alter Lord/ Wardancer Hero/ Alter Hereo or Wardancer Lore/ Alter Hero/ Alter Hero. If the priest has 2 like I think, I would charge an Alter Lord with a great weapon, the helm of the hunt and annoyance of netlings in. He should hit with 4-5 of his 6 attacksand wound with 3-4. The priest only has a 5+ and should die. The Stegadon needs 6's to attack and should maybe hit with one (don't know his nuber of attacks ) Then the next round you strike before the steg, and he's at -1 to hit you to help you live. The 9 Alter attacks should hit 6-7 times and wound with 3-4 of which the steg might save one, so 2-3 wounds. The Wardancer Hero has 5 attacks (taking extra attack) and will hit about 3 times. Needing 6's to wound with a reroll you should get at least 1 wound which he'll save 50% of the time I belive. His attacks back might kill the Lord that was in the challenge. Another option is just 3 Alters, as after thinking about it you might not want to take the Wardancer Hero unless he's a lord, if at all. If you are ok with sacrificing alters, you could send one in to kill the priest, then the Wardancer Lord with Blades of Loec in to fight the Steg. He'll have 6 attacks so 4 should hit and only needing 5's now you should do 3 or so wounds of which 1 might get saved.

Option 3)
Combine 1 and 2. Beast Cowers the Steg so he can't attack, send 3 alters in. If you get it off he should die, if not, you'll lose an alter but have 2 left.


Sorry for the long post, I just figured I'd rather be more elaborate then more vague. Hope it helps and good luck!