Orion vs the Bloodthirster

I played a practice game against a buddy of mine, trying to knock the rust off before the Exterminatus INDY GT this weekend, and since I had not had a chance to play against the new Daemon book I asked him to bring a nasty list. He obliged and fielded an ugly all-Khorne list. My heart kinda fell when I saw this list, kinowing I was going to have an uphill battle. Walter being Walter, he does not like to mix marks, so he fields an all Khorne list. He also doesn't like to tool up his Bloodthirster with all the toys, although what he did bring looked bad enough. He also loves his Khorne-dawgs... er, Flesh Hounds and brings as many as he can squeeze in. In this case he gave one unit a champion as well. Herald of Khorne BSB in a unit of Blood Crushers made for a nasty looking unit and I frankly wasn't sure I had anything that could deal with it. I'm doing this list from memory (left my notes at home) so any errors in his list are my own.

Walter's Khorne - 2250 pts
Bloodthirster of Khorne @ 525 Pts - General; Hand Weapon; Heavy Armour; Axe of Khorne, Firestorm Blade, Immortal Fury
Herald of Khorne (Battle Standard Bearer)- Hand Weapon; Locus of Khorne, Juggernaut of Khorne , Great Standard of Sundering

10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 132 Pts- Hand Weapon; Bloodreaper
10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 132 Pts- Hand Weapon; Bloodreaper
10 Bloodletters of Khorne @ 132 Pts- Hand Weapon; Bloodreaper

6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 250 Pts - Karanak, Hound of Vengeance
6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 210 Pts
6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 210 Pts
6 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 210 Pts

3 Bloodcrushers of Khorne @ 210 Pts- Juggernaut of Khorne
Total Roster Cost: 2236

The Heralds Banner gave him extra dispel dice against any one lore, so of course he chose Life lore (duh).

My list in case you didn't see it in the other thread:

2250 Pts - Wood Elves Roster - Orion's Bumpy Ride - Mark Salisbury
Orion, the King in the Woods @ 575 Pts - General
Wood Elf Noble @ 143 Pts - Hand Weapon; Longbow; Spear; Light Armour; Shield, Elven Steed , The Helm of the Hunt, Hail of Doom Arrow
Spellsinger @ 260 Pts - Glamorweave Kindred; Level 2 Upgrade; Hand Weapon; Longbow, Unicorn, 2x Dispel Scroll, Life Lore (Tree Singing, Ariel's Blessing)

5 Wild Riders of Kurnous @ 191 Pts - Command, Warbanner
5 Wild Riders of Kurnous @ 166 Pts - Command
6 Glade Riders @ 162 Pts - Champion, Musician

9 Dryads @ 108 Pts
9 Dryads @ 108 Pts
10 Wardancers @ 201 Pts - Champion, Musician

1 Treeman @ 285 Pts
1 Great Eagle @ 50 Pts
Total Roster Cost: 2249

The table was pretty generic - Hills in the center of each deployment zone, a stand of trees on either side centered between the zones about 12" in from the edges. I threw down my free woods between the hill and the woods on my right.

Deployment
He set up (going from my left to right) a unit of Bloodletters on the left flank, heading down the left side of the trees, another between the woods and his hill and the third on the hill. Khorne-dawgs to the left, front and right of the hill, and on the far right flank the unit with the champion heading down to the right of the right-hand woods. Blood Thirster in the center on the hill, Herald and Blood Crushers to the right of the hill behind the dawgs. His plan was to rush the opposing line and get in my face as soon as possible - no subtley there!

I set up with a weighted right flank. From my left to right I dropped the eagle to the left of the left woods, with Noble joining the Glade Riders directly behind the left woods. Wardancers between the woods and the hill. Both units of Dryads running a screen to the right of the hill, behind the woods, with the Treeman between them immediately behind the woods. Orion joined the Warbanner Wild Riders behind the Treeman, Spellsinger and Unicorn joined the other unit of Wild Riders to their right, slightly to the right of the woods. My plan was for the Eagle to fly up and march block the Bloodletters, while the Glade Riders and Noble used the left woods as cover to harrass the Khorne-dwags with bow fire, and march block as much as possible. The Wardancers and Dryads would be running interference, trying to tie up the Bloodletter (somehow) while Orion used my the woods to the right as cover to Bolt-thrower units, and the Treeman stayed in cover (definitely did NOT want a Bloodthirster with flaming magical attacks ANYWHERE near him) while he used Strangleroot and Treesinging to concentrate on targets of opportunity. The Mage would likewise use the trees as cover to maneauver for a flank charge and to treesing where-ever possible, as well as perhaps give Ariel's Blessing (Regneration) to a threatened unit. I didn't actually expect to get any spells off this game, but one could hope, right?

I won the roll and elected to go first, figuring that he would be on me soon enough. I briefly debated letting him go first to get him to commit to a course of action, but decided I'd rather get at least one Bolt thrower shot and the Hail of Doom arrow off once before he was on top of me. The eagle moved out, dropped down to the left of the woods, out of charge range of the Bloodletters, but in range to march block if they advanced. The Noble and Glade Riders moved up into the left woods and moved to the right edge so they had a clear shot at the leftmost khorne-dawgs. The Wardancers slid to their right closer towards the center of the board, while the right most dryads moved between my free woods and the rightmost woods, taking care to stay more than 20" away from the Bloodthirster. Mage and Wild riders moved into right most woods, Treeman into the Free woods, staying more than 2" back from the edge. Orion sidled over a bit to get a clear shot at the Blood Thirster between the left dryads and the woods. Magic saw him let the two Treesinging (treeman and mage) go through so the Treemans woods moved a couple inches closer to nearest dawg, trying to close off a couple avenues of advance. The mage tried to cast Ariel's Blessing on Orions unit to give them Regeneration, but the -2 to casting Life Lore from the Bloodthirster foiled it. Shooting was equally uneventful - The Hail of Doom split into 14 shots, of which 10 hit the nearest unit of Dawgs, 6 wounded, and he saved all but 2, killing one dawg. Glade Rider shooting was equally diappointing, causing only one unsaved wound. Orion bulls-eyed the Bloodthirster, hit it easily, caused one wound which was easily ward saved.

Go Crimson Tide! The entire line charged forward as expected. The left most Bloodletters advanced their 10 inches, just shy of the Eagle, as planned. The next 'letter unit turned and started down towards the left woods, while the third stood proud on the hill. The dawgs that the Glade Riders had just shot up turned and advanced on the woods, obviously looking for revenge for getting shot up. The two center dawg units advanced to mid board followed by the Herald and Juggers, while the Blood Thirster dropped down right in front of Orion, looking for a fight. It also put him square between the the two Dryad units, and behind the treeman. The dawg unit with champion advanced down the right side of the board. No magic, shooting or combat - end of turn 1.

OK, Crunch Time. Orion had this snarling Bloodthirster right in from of him, and with only a 5+ Forest Spirit save he wasn't in any hurry to tangle with him. Although I admit I spent a moment figuring the odds of a Wild Rider Charge doing enough damage to him, but the odds just didn't seem to work out in my favor. Even if I threw in the two dryad units. So descretion being the better part of Valor, the two Dryads charged in and hit the Thirster on both flanks while Orion and his Wild Riders sidled to the left, out of any pursuit moves should the dryads both break, yet with a clear LOS to the oncoming Dawg units. The mages Wild Riders continued through the woods to end up behind and between the rightmost dawgs and the juggers, neatly march blocking them, and threatening a rear charge on them both. The Eagle continued to block the left most 'Letter unit, while the Glade Riders, in a moment of "Gee, I wonder how tough these Flesh Hounds REALLY are?" charged out of the woods into the depleted Dawg unit. The treeman moved over to the edge of the woods, within Strangleroot range of the center Dawgs but out of sight of the Juggernaughts. THe Wardancers moved farther right, screening Orion's Wildriders. Magic was a complete waste, while shooting saw Orion manage to skewer one of the dawgs in the center with his bow and the Treeman Strangle-rooted the rest. Combat saw the Noble and his Glade Riders kill all but 2 of the Flesh-hounds, losing only one Glade Rider, and the dawgs failed to roll under the "3" they needed and popped. The Glade Riders declined to overrun. The dryads did their best, actually inflicting 2 unsaved wounds on the Thirster, only to have him turn on the unit closest to Orion and paste them, killing 6 out of 8 dryads. 6 wounds vs 2 wounds + Mass + Flank, the Dryads lost by 2, which shouldn't be a problem, not with their Ld10 Demi-God close by, right? Well the mashed unit made their break test easily, but the unharmed unit apparently was un-nerved at the sight of their sisters being mauled like that and decided to head for the high-country (rolled a "10" for their break-test). Luckily the Blood-thirster was not able to pursue.

Khorne turn 2 - The center khorne-dawg unit charged the fleeing dryads between the rightmost woods sections, causing them to flee 11" (when they run , they really run I guess), miring the dwags in the right hand woods. The Herald and his Juggernaughts charged into the Wardancers, while the champion dawgs turned about and headed back up to address the Mages Wildriders. The bloodletters on the far left continued their slow progress down the outside of the woods, "hounded" (if you will) by the Great Eagle. The Bloodthirster easily dispatched the two brave dryads, and sat looking around for more prey. The Wardancers used the "4+ Ward save" dance and the Juggernaughts only managed to kill 3, taking a wound in the process themselves! The Wardancers easily made their break-test on Orion's Ld10 and stuck around.

Wood Elf Turn 3 - Ok, this was getting a little close for Orion's comfort. Hoping for a flank charge into the dawgs in the trees, Orion checked the angles only to realize that the Thirster was *just* in the way (in the dawgs flank, he could reach the dawgs, but only in the front arc. The Thirster prevented them from reaching the dawgs flank.) so running around beside the Bloodthirster, he lined up for another Bow shot. The fleeing Dryads rallied. The mage and his escort moved closer to the woods, staying out of LOS of the advancing hounds on the right.The treeman stepped over to the right to get within range of the dawgs in the trees. Magic saw two treesinging attempts chew up one more dawg in the trees and Ariel's Blessing fail to get off. The Glade Riders shot up the Bloodletters that had charged them before, killing 3. Orion tried to shoot the Bloodthirster, but was distracted by something apparently ("Ready! Aim! Fi...Oh, look! A butterfly!" - rolled a "1" to hit). The treeman Stranglerooted the Bloodthirster, causing 2 wounds! Woot! The wardancers completely forgot that the Jugger on the end was actually a Khorne Herald, so instead of trying the Killing blow dance chose the extra attack dance. 22 attacks, 15 hits, 3 wounds all saved. Dang. The Juggers came back and pretty much raped the wardancers, killing all but 3 and watching as the survivors fled off the board.

Korne Turn 3 - The Juggernaughts pulled an about face and headed up the board, trying to get an angle on Orion. I had seriously misjudged the angles on the champion dawgs north of the woods, as I found out when they charged headlong into the front of the mages Wildrider unit. The Bloodthirster turned around to threaten Orion's flank, as the depleted unit of dawgs in the trees charged out into the dryads. 5 dryads dead, remaining 3 flee, dawgs restrain pursuit. Against the Champion Fleshhounds, the champion challenged and chewed up the Wildrider Champion, while the 3 models in base with the Mage scraped him off the unicorn. The unit loses, and is run down by the dawgs.

WE Turn 4 - Orion moves into the woods, and get a flank shot on the Herald's Juggernauts. The treeman backs into the trees, but stays within 6" of the Juggers. Orion bolt-throwers the Juggernaut unit, killing the Herald and a jugger, and the treeman strangleroots the remaining two juggers. GR's continue to dance around the two Bloodletters, getting behind the leftmost letters and shooting them, killing 3. The Eagle turns to face the same 'letters flank, while still march blocking the ones coming down side. I'm thinking that the letters will turn around next turn to face the Glade Riders, and the Eagle would be in position for a dual front/ flank charge. If the Letters DON'T turn around, the Glade Riders will hit them in the rear and eat their lunch.

Khorne turn 4 - As expected the far Bloodletters turn turn about to face the gladeriders. The BloodThirster moves to center of the board. There has to be something I can do about this guy... The 'letters on the hill turn to face the left, heading towards the corner with the Glade Riders. The Champion hounds andvance a little to get a clear view of the center of the board.

WE Turn 5 - I'm bored, and while I know I can play to a probable draw at this point, I decide to shake things up and see what these guys are like in combat. Orion has the angle on the dawgs that had killed the mage, so he and his Wildriders charge them, hoping to blow through them and get beyond the Bloodthristers charge range. If they don't, they are screwed with a Blood Thirster in their rear. The tree man Tree man tries to strangleroot BT, but no wounds get past the ward save. Of course, Orion and his riders bounced hard, killing only 1 Fleshhound and losing all but the Standard Bearer, but making their break test and Orion taking a wound from combat res. Ouch, next turn is going to hurt, sitting there stuck with their rear exposed to the Thirster. The Glade Riders and eagle charged the bloodletters, killed all but 6, and the rest popped due to combat resolution. They over run, hoping that 3d6 will get them into the 'letters on the hill, but they fall just a bit short. The fleeing Dryads failed to rally, kept running towards the deployment edge, stopping 1" away.

Khorne turn 5 - BT charges rear of Orion's unit, Bellowing a challenge at the frustrating treehuggers who had been dancing around him the entire battle. Of course Orion is going to go down swinging, so he accepts (especially since he really didn't have a choice, being one of only 2 models left in the unit LOL). The Bloodletters on the hill charge the glade riders, who flee and escape. The Thirster only causes 4 wounds on Orion while Orion can't wound the Thirster, Dawgs finish off remaining WR. Losing combat, the combat resolution is enough to take Orions last wound.

WE Turn 6 - The Glade Riders and Noble rally easily, take a few parting shots at the 'letters on the hill, killing 2 more as a parting love-gift. Treeman tried one last Strangleroot on the 'Thirster, but misfired. The remaining dryads rally and stand in the corner counting their blessings. I concede the game at this point.

WE srviving - 1/2 strength dryads, depleted Glade Riders, Noble, Great Eagle, Treeman

Khorne surviving - Wounded Blood Thirster, 2 wounded units of Flesh Hounds (one with Champion), 2 units of BloodLetters (one depleted, one full strength)

Going into Turn 5 VPs were fairly close - approx. WE 1200 pts vs Khorne 1300 pts (plus or minus). After gacking Orion of course it swung seriously in Khornes favor - something like a 844 pt swing. I often say that I seem to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on turn 5 - so true this game LOL

Wow.

OK, lessons learned - Without at least two woods sections to play with, I would have been screwed. I was able to use the terrain to keep out of charge arcs, bog down and steer his units into directions I wanted them to go. As it was he pretty much boxed me into one corner and it was hard to work my way out of it. OK, I started with a weighted flank in that corner, but his sheer speed meant that you don't have much time to react before he's breathing down your neck.

Fleshhounds are just nasty. As my friend put it, "Flesh hounds are not your normal fast cav - think of them more like Bret knights." Two wounds, decent toughness and a wards save. Yeah, I can see the analogy. You pretty much need to get a flank charge on them or whittle them down a bit with missle fire first. A Noble with 5 Glade riders were able to take down a 4 strong unit, yet Orion and 5 Wild Riders and the War Banner were not able to take down a unit of 6 with a champion. How's THAT happen?

The Bloodthirster is nasty unless you have some serious shooting. Walter pointed out that his Thirster rarely survived a game, but usually get getting shot up by Every bolt thrower on the board until it's dead. Then they turn to the Juggernaut unit. My problem was that I had only two units with missle weapons strong enough to get his attention (Orion and the Treeman).

Juggernauts are nasty on the charge (I felt like the Chinese student facing tanks in Tiannamen Square), but wardancers with Shadows Coil *can* survive a charge. They just can't do a whole lot the next turn. I have to wonder what a WD champion with 3 troopers using Whirling Death (Killing blow) would do against a Khorne Herald. 9 attacks hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's, 1 chance in 3 of a killing blow, vs a 5+ ward save. Not a big chance, but it would be worth the shot. Add in a Wardancer Noble and the odds get a little better.

Strategery
OK, One strategy might be to pick off the support troops (Blood Letters, Flesh Hounds) while avoiding the Bloodthirster and the Blood Crushers. Not that easy to do, but possible I suppose, but in the end you'll spend expensive troops to pick off relatively cheap troops, and leave a buttload of points on the table.

The other would be to do the opposite - march block and tie down the foot troops with something inexpensive (Great Eagles, Glade Riders) while you concentrate your efforts at wiping out one unit at a time the flesh hounds, Blood Crushers. Hopefully tying up the Blood Thirster until the end game where you can give it your full attention. Kinda hard to do with a large flying critter. When it was frenzied it was easier - give it a fast unit to chase off into a corner somewhere.

Walter also gave me a quick run down of the other marks. He described Nurgle as being a point denial army - you have big blocks of hard to kill units, with the Big Daddy having 10 Wds! Only WS 4 and a 5+ ward, but T6 and 10 wds! Gah. Tzeentch can bring a boxcar-load of casting dice, but aren't as tough in combat. Flamers would be the sore point - they would likely high on the target list. Slaanesh are fast but a Wood Elf army should take them apart fairly easily. The last time I played against Slaanesh I pretty much owned the Daemonettes, both mounted and on foot. Killed everything then turned into the Keeper of Secrets and ganged up on it.

Now a mixed mark list, cherry picking the best of each mark, would be ugly to contemplate.

Anyway, it was a fun game, and I got a better feel for the army. I still dislike playing against Daemons in general, but I need to get used to them.

Excellent read, Padraig and congrats on the draw! You did amazingly well against such a tough list. Thank you for taking the time to post the batrep, I really enjoyed reading it.

Have you gained any insights as to tackle the bloodthirster? Mathhammer says that we need some 200 glade guard shots to take him out. Close combat doesn't seem to work, if even orion can't stand up to him

Face it, for a Demi-God Orion is a wimp. With only a 5+ Forest Spirt save, if he doesn't kill everything in base to base with him he stands a good chance of getting shredded by anything with a decent Strength attack. He really shouldn't have survived the attacks by the Thirster - I was surprised that he did.

How to tackle the Blood Thirster - well, the Treeman's strangleroots seemed to work well - the trick would be to get him within 6" without getting charged in return. A nice thick stand of trees seemed to work well but again, how do you get the thing to cooperate and land next to a bunch of trees? Orions Bow worked well, but that's not an option with a "regular" Wood Elf army. Not sure how to deal with it other than play "Spin the Blooodthirster" while shooting it with everything we have. A rear charge with hot dice *might* work, but if not then the charging unit is likely going to get shredded in return. it is a connundrum.

I think the best way to tackle him remains to feed him cheap units that lure him away from the rest of the army. Which used to be a lot easier with him being frenzied.

Another idea would be to try and sucker him into charging into a large unit of eternal guard with a noble. The static combat result will be hard to overcome... This tactic does require your opponents mind to be made of jam.

And with only a Forest Spirit save, against Magical Attacks (Which Demons all dish out, I believe), he's in even greater trouble.
The usual case, that the older Special Characters aren't worth their points.